This podcast was recorded on 18 June 2021.
David Austin: We have Dr. Mathew Mathews, Principal Research Fellow and Head of the Social Lab at the Institute of Policy Studies at NUS and Shamil Zainuddin, Research Associate at the Institute of Policy Studies at NUS. And we're following up on a recent commentary they wrote that was published in Channel NewsAsia, about the worries over rising COVID-19 cases, that they're fuelling racially charged comments, and we wanted to follow up and talk a little bit more about that.
Thank you two, for joining us today. Some of the incidents of racism that have gone viral, and spread on social media, and garnered a lot of agitation and anger, and they are kind of upsetting videos. But I wanted to ask both of you, if you think that [these are] signs that there's increasing racism right now, or if these are some of the kinds of underlying incidents that are kind of always been here and they just happened to be caught on iPhone or smartphone, and they were spread that way? Dr. Mathews, would you like to start?
Mathew Mathews: First, I think if you take a look at the survey data we've been collecting over the last, eight, nine years - What we do see is that you do have prejudice in Singapore, you do have discrimination. You do have stereotypes. Essentially, you do have racism in Singapore. However, to see racism as rampant or something, which is endemic within society, I think that's questionable.
Even in our surveys, what we've noticed, if you just look at what minorities mention about encounters with racism, whether it is being upset because you have seen material on social media or mainstream media, which upsets them because it insults them, it insults their traditions, their culture, their religious beliefs, you notice about 20% would say that.
So, there's a portion who at least say that this happens to them at least sometimes, that's certainly a significant portion. We cannot run away from that. We do know that there is a portion, maybe about something around 30% who say that they have been experiencing or they've experienced discrimination in the workforce.
So, we do know that we have a context where there is a portion, especially among minorities who do feel concerns with this discrimination, racist acts, upset with various kinds of things which have been thrown at them. So, you have that underlying [context].
However, of course, the great majority don't experience it. So, if you ask the big question, what's the level of racial harmony in Singapore? The great majority rank it "high" or "very high". Now, among minorities, there's a few more who would say "moderate". [Our scale] has got "very low", "low", "moderate", "high", "very high". We'll find a few more minorities [who choose "moderate" to describe the level of racial harmony here] but still you've got a very substantial number of minorities who would say it is actually "very high".
When I look at all these figures, I would say we've always had underlying issues to deal with in terms of racists, those who will be bigoted, which I think for the great majority [of cases] is just being ignorant about other people's cultures and beliefs and practices. So that's always been there.
However, what you have is in the most recent times, you've got of course a pandemic –[which] obviously exacerbates some things. Things become more evident, people do sometimes act out a little bit. And there's also been an increased willingness to share about situations of racism.
If you look at the figures we've had, they've always been about 20% who have felt that they've been subject to actual racism. it's just that they for various reasons, they feel that they don't need to make that public. They don't have to put it on social media.
But in the more recent times you've got more people who say, "Hey, I want to bring this forward. I want people to know this is some of the challenges we deal with." It may not be rampant. It doesn't happen all the time, which is why this needs special attention and that's why we've put down [in the commentary].
David Austin: Shamil, what do you think? Do you agree with that? And do you think that it helps foster a greater communication or does it just rile people up when they see something that's upsetting on social media?
Shamil Zainuddin: I mean, surely it riles people up, right? I mean, it's almost like a spectacle, you know, when you see certain really upsetting videos online and what people can do is, to click like, or to say something about it.
But I would like to add this. While it might be 20%, it's palpable, right? You can really feel it you know. 20% is something that perhaps a good number of minorities feel. Perhaps, it's not like, hardcore racism but it is those kinds of microaggressions. It's those everyday small things [like people] mispronounced your name, speak certain different language in your presence. But it's small things that kind of add up. So perhaps social media has allowed for people to sort of air their grievances.
And I feel that this idea of sharing kind of helps to normalise and to make it kind of, "Oh, it seems okay for me to say that these things happened to me." Yeah. So, I think that's that another factor to think about.
But it's definitely palpable.
David Austin: Do you think that's a good thing that people feel more comfortable to share bad experiences that have happened to them?
Shamil Zainuddin: I think there are three points with regard to that kind of question. The first thing is listening, whether is it good or not, we need to listen to some people who say they have been hurt.
And I think the first thing we need to ask is "Why? Why are you hurt?" Let's listen to them and therefore create space to allow so-called minority voices to say why they're hurt and also to accept the fact that perhaps something might land differently on another person. We might experience things differently. And it's something to take note of. And that's why we need to create proper space. So that people can be inclusive and hear different voices.
And number two is this idea of allies. So, you might see a lot of people [who say and] think very negative thing[s] about a particular race. But there might be those few who actually say, "Hey, stop. Stop saying [that], this can be quite racist. It's quite hurtful. Maybe you should stop saying it." And I would like to point out the character Merick from that interracial couple incident. Merick seems to be an ally. He stood up when the professor was talking something [problematic] about [a particular] religion. And he said, "I will not have this." And he stood up and he said, "Are you okay?" He asked the girl, right? So Merrick is a nice example of an ally.
And also it seems like it's always about a game of definitions. So, if you look at the comments and that's what we've been looking at, we get comments, how people talk about it, there's a lot on definition. "What is racism? What isn't racism? You sound like a racist, you sound like a [bigot]", so this idea of definitions. [This] points to an opportunity - people want to find out [and] they're testing out what these definitions are. And if we explore how to talk about these issues properly then perhaps it can be very positive.
David Austin: Getting back to the commentary, and then also some of the studies that you already mentioned, like the IPS study that said that 60% of those polled, they were concerned about increased suspicion between people of different social backgrounds as a result of COVID-19. Does that show that there’s an avenue to try and make things better, that there is some awareness that people can see that yes, reports of the COVID-19 virus coming from certain countries may lead to greater suspicion? You know, what did you make of that finding?
Mathew Mathews: The poll figures just remind us how salient harmony is to many Singaporeans. It's so clear to us that there are forces which act against the kind of harmony we want to see in Singapore.
We do know, based on what we observe elsewhere around the world, we do see instances of disharmony, of pandemics further exacerbating fault lines. And as Singaporeans, the value to ensure that this space continues to be one which is harmonious, has cohesion, that every different culture, migrants, everybody can find a good living space here - those things are very important for many Singaporeans. And so, when you see the concern that they have, that the pandemic can cost these rifts, I see it as a healthy sign. I see that people do know that this can happen. Of course, the great majority always say, it [a fracture in societal harmony] can happen but its other people's actions, not mine.
It takes one more step for us to be able to look at ourselves and say, "I can be the bigoted person. I can be ignorant about others, other groups," but it's certainly a healthy start to that. People are open.
David Austin: And that brings us to another finding that you mentioned in the commentary, that one in four respondents reported themselves becoming more negative about immigrants or, you know, noticing that within themselves, including those from India because of the pandemic. So, what does that mean to you that there are at least 25% of people that have that kind of self-awareness? And does that lead to instances of self-policing in a way?
Mathew Mathews: To start off with them, I'm glad that 25% - probably I wouldn't use the word, "I'm glad", for that, but...
David Austin: At least it's 25%, right?
Mathew Mathews: Yeah. I mean, it's hard to look at that figure, there are two ways of looking at it. Onet that it is self-awareness about what is happening. The other is also that this is an opportunity for them to say, "Yeah, I have become more and more upset, and I have right reasons to be upset with these migrant groups for a variety of reasons." Which maybe the pandemic has heightened their awareness about some of [their perceived] potential flaws of migrants. And, certainly this sense that, "We as a community, are good, but the new guys coming in, they've got these flaws."
So, certainly there is a portion [of] people [who] are aware. I think that's helpful. But I would also say that there is a portion [of people who] the pandemic has stoked increased negative sentiments among them. Hopefully with that, when people sense that they are becoming more and more negative about the group, something will kick in that they will feel, "Maybe I should do a little bit more exploration and find out" I should ask myself "Why, why do I have these prejudices? Why am I so upset with this group?" And go beyond just looking at it from the point that there is essentially a group of people who are bad and who have got lots of negativity surrounding them, to look at the broader picture and try to understand.
As we've mentioned in the commentary, the main grouses we have sometimes are about policy, perhaps policies about who should be admitted [into the country]. What number of people should be admitted to our country, especially during a pandemic, whether our borders should be tightened? So those might be the bigger questions, but somehow or other, that has brought also another set of upsetness and fears about a particular group. So hopefully people can be discerning and try to tease those things apart.
Shamil Zainuddin: I just want to echo Mathew's point, a major point of our op-ed was, let's talk about policies. We can agree or disagree about the policies, but let's leave the hate at the door. Let's talk about the policies, and there's nothing wrong with talking about policies.
And on the idea of awareness. I think as they say, the first step to change is also to be aware and not be in denial. So if you are aware and so-called admit to your issues, then something can happen with regard to recovery. I mean, recovery, if we use a medical term.
So, the fact that they are aware is very promising and then we can move forward. If you are not aware that you're doing something [wrong], that is [itself] [a] problem, actually. So it is useful that the people are aware.
David Austin: Yeah. Now, you mentioned the importance of people speaking up and using their voice, on social media. If you see someone espousing a racist view, even if you're one of the only ones, it helps to make a comment saying, "No, that's not right. I don't believe that, you know, it's based on misinformation." Tell me more about how you feel that matters and how does that help the situation?
Mathew Mathews: Often in social media posts, you've got, comment after comment perhaps vilifying a particular group. Somebody needs to come in, to put some perspective and context to that. Now by doing that, when people start to come in and say, well, maybe "That's inaccurate facts, you've not been correctly thinking about it."
What that does is that, of course it raises the conscience of other people who are also going through the set of comments and reacting. Many people do know what is good behaviour. They know that it's not right to just brush [with] broad brushstrokes, completely wipe out a whole group of people. They know it's not the proper thing to do, but that's what's emotive, that's what happens when there's already quite a bit of upsetness.
And so, when those who believe in the cause of harmony understand why it's important to respect people of different backgrounds,come in and [challenge negative] statements, that raises people's conscience. Now, sometimes people do fight against that.
If you're the one who tries to put some balance, you do get others upset with what you were saying, but it certainly does something to how people think about the situation. Perhaps somebody taking the lead, to let others joining in [the social media thread], to completely change how everybody is reading that,
David Austin: And Shamil, is that also like the idea of enforcing social norms? If people see I see that there's someone else willing to stand up and that it can make them feel like it's okay to stand up as well?
Shamil Zainuddin: Yeah, I think it's an excellent point. And also, [this] allows me to highlight the number of ground up initiatives that came up during this pandemic, to help vulnerable groups. Really commendable efforts out there, from translation services, to food, to sewing your own mask, right? So we see a lot of great things and that has kind of normalised it, right? I mean, even podcasts, a number of podcasts, people are talking about things, it kind of normalizes it, the idea of helping.
In fact, I would like to see our own commentary as an example of trying to be an ally, to those who are vulnerable or who are probably abused or hurt. And, you know, it goes without saying that - you know, even us saying something in this commentary we also would get, you know, the two of us got some kind of negative comments online you know, about perhaps our own background or race or whatever.
And we were really happy [with] the few people actually stood up for us and said, "Hey, Mathew, Shamil – it's okay. Mathew and Shamil, sorry for you to feel that way." And it's great. Because, let's say if someone is abused and you kept quiet. The person who's being abused might not appreciate your silence. You might need that one person who says, "Hey, you know Shamil, ignore these thousand and one people, you're okay. [Or] just checking up on you. Are you alright? Hopefully." Yeah so, it matters. And what Mathew says is a great point, another person might come in and say, stop bullying this person.
But the important thing is, you know, let's not go into personal attacks. Let's keep it to the facts.
David Austin: Right. Yeah. And were there any other specific, ground up initiatives that you wanted to talk about that you thought was a really positive sign?
Mathew Mathews: One thing during the whole pandemic, you realise, how much of ground up [initiatives for especially] migrant workers. Migrant workers [have] many other issues revolving around treatment of migrant workers and protection for them.
Very often migrant workers are of a different race. I mean, we do know that many of those in the dorms are of South Asian backgrounds, for instance and many Singaporeans are ethnic Chinese, but yeah, there were all kinds of outpouring of interest or care. All kinds of provisions done to better the lives of migrant workers.
So you do see people trying to counter what could have been the racist response then, to say, "They deserved it, it is because of their culture, that's why so many of them are infected by the virus," but no, many Singaporeans stepped up to help.
David Austin: Moving from ground up interventions to government or policy interventions, during times like this, where there's an extra pressure from outside, like the pandemic, that could be causing more problems, is there anything that the government has done or could do?
Shamil Zainuddin: I think for one, this idea of "allowing" [more things like] podcasts and stuff to happen. You know, the number of workshops, webinars that are happening in this period of time? And without much, censorship, you know, it's fantastic, right? People are talking about it in a very peaceful manner.
And I think that is, probably a good policy. I would say perhaps [say it is] a calibrated kind of a move. There's more allowance. The Straits Times talked about racism the other day, five pages of it, you know? I think it's a good sign to allow these kind of conversation[s] and perhaps to maybe intervene when it's a bit too much, when people are getting hurt. Yeah. So I think maybe the policy would be to allow people to talk a bit more.
Mathew Mathews: I would say that right from the start, to look at it from a government comms perspective, it probably has come up from either ground-sensing efforts very early in the pandemic, as early as when visitors from China would come in. And there were concerns about them. People used the term "Wuhan Virus" and people began to have [negative] feelings about migrant Chinese in Singapore. There were various attempts by the state to try to speak about [the] issue, remind Singaporeans that the virus does not have a nationality and ethnic background, it's here to harm all of us who live in this island.
So, that communication came up very early. Of course, with that, a lot of opinion pieces, [and] different kinds of statements. So, there was a very intentional effort to remind Singaporeans, those who live here, that there is good behaviour that we can demonstrate during the pandemic. We need to leverage on social trust because if we don't have social trust, then it's harder to get through the pandemic. So, you've had that mentioned throughout the period, and during the periods of [rising] xenophobia. There were several times where xenophobic reactions were stoked during the pandemic, and you do get the government coming on to say, these are not actions which are acceptable. Now of course, we don't want only the government to speak or the state to speak. And, the ground-up bodies should make this clear.
But I think it's very important from a government communications point of view, that there's an effort to bring out - just recently some of the more racist situations have even seen the Prime Minister come up and make a statement that some of these actions are just not acceptable within our country. I think that's important. It clearly puts out to Singaporeans what is expected in life here.
Shamil Zainuddin: I just wanted to add to this idea of the government and people in general [and the] recognising [of] essential workers as well. This is the period of time we saw [government and people recognising these workers as essential workers]- and this has a nice implication with regard to the idea of meritocracy - because these are people sometimes we see at, so-called the bottom of the ladder, vulnerable groups, whether they are [for example] delivery riders. And now they are essential workers, people who are helping us move along and survive in this period. So you know, that itself, is saying to me, at least it sends a clear message to those people out there, that there's some kind of gratitude, you're kind of recognised. Of course we can do more. But this pandemic has allowed us to give more credit to those who, probably, where credit is due. Because we're at home, you know, or in offices and they are out there, delivering our food and whatnot, and of course nurses every day.
So that itself, is important to note.
David Austin: And internationally, what about things like the World Health Organisation, choosing Greek letters for different virus variants to try and move away from calling it the Wuhan virus or South Africa variant, things like that. Does that language help?
Shamil Zainuddin: I think it's a good start. People might say, "Oh yeah, this is like really a small thing, just chang[ing] the name." No, as we all know, labels matter. And unfortunately, people have been labelled certain things and others have acted upon those labels and you can hurt.
So this sends a nice, clear signal, let us think before we label others or paint an entire group with a brush in a certain way, because that's how stereotypes happen. And we saw how, [labels like] "Wuhan virus" and "Indian variant", can be hurtful for some of these people.
Mathew Mathews: It is so much better that we just label them in alphabets [like] Delta, different Greek alphabets,[it's] so much better. In itself [this\ may not completely remove all the xenophobia we have seen in more recent years or recent months because of variants that come from different places, because there's really been a tradition, [which] started off calling this the Indian mutant or South African [variant].
But, hopefully all this will help us be better prepared for the next pandemic, that we are careful to allay some potential traps.
David Austin: Very good. Well, finally, I would like to ask both of you, how you would compare the Singapore situation to some of the other instances of racism and anti-Asian sentiment in places like the United States or France?
Mathew Mathews: Some of the anti-Asian actions happening in some parts of the world, have been fuelled by lots of rhetoric about, for instance, the virus, the place, the origin of the virus locating it in Asia. And I think that has not helped. And of course, much of the rhetoric comes with a lot more conversation.
Just the fear of migrants, how migrants are upsetting the status quo in many cities, bringing in new culture and new practices, but maybe more fundamentally just [that] they've become an economic competitor. And when your rice bowl is affected, you get very upset. And so, it's really a manifestation of those who are perhaps nativist or others who have very strong feelings that Asians have been, have gone beyond their shores and are trying to economically dominate different places. Then of course, the reaction is one of hate, to try to keep as many away from this particular society.
So that's been [the case], that's very sad. I'm very fortunate that [in] Singapore, that kind of rhetoric is not accepted. There are other places based on notions of free speech. You can get into very long, substantial discourses, blaming particular groups and saying all kinds of very nasty things about them. Fortunately, the laws here do stop that kind of discourse, and this is a place where you notice that perhaps you do need some limits to potential freedom, especially when that freedom causes you to rant and be bigoted and hurt a large group of people.
I think in the Singapore case, there has been that protection because you don't have, for instance a far right anti-immigrant type of rhetoric which has [not] been allowed, and that's been taken care of.
You cannot have, public expressions of it, at least. So of course, you do have people commenting on social media and being upset, but it doesn't get, for instance, into mainstream media, it doesn't get into a day-to-day discourse, political parties generally don't use such rhetoric. So, we're fortunate in that regard and I think that's, that's an important distinction.
Shamil Zainuddin: We've been living with each other in this super diverse island. One of the most diverse islands or countries in the world, with relative harmony compared to any other country, I feel. And during this period of time, we see how we sort of help each other, or talk about each other, or say, "Hey, let's not talk about this kind of thing to another person." And I think it's great, but we also need to say this. There are perhaps people who have been hurt, right? By immigrants, migrants and they feel hurt. Probably they faced [a] rude person, [a] non-local born person. And, we're not trying to diss them. We're not trying to say, "Hey, you're lying. All immigrants are great." No, there are rude Malays, rude Indians, rude people in general, right? We're just saying that perhaps the sample size would be a bit small [to make a broad generalisations].
I know it's left a bad taste in your mouth, but let's not paint the entire population, we're talking billions of people with one stroke. And to make it even more easy to understand, we will not want other people to paint us that way, right? Based on one [or a few negative] interaction by another person, we paint the entire population that way.
I just want to also say to those people who have been hurt, let us not paint an entire population with some kind of negative brush.
So, let's talk about policy, and not so much people.
David Austin: Very good. Thank you. I think that's really well said. I think that's probably a pretty good place to end it. I want to thank both of you for your commentary and for the work that you're doing in this area. And yeah, I hope that people can continue to learn and discuss, and be allies, and that we all live together, happily here on this diverse little island. So, thanks everyone for listening and I appreciate it. Goodbye.
(Photo credit: Ehimetalor Akhere Unuabona)